"As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, the best the World ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupt changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the Truth with less trouble. I see no harm, however, in its being believed, if that belief has the good consequence, as probably it has, of making his doctrines more respected and better observed; especially as I do not perceive that the Supreme takes it amiss, by distinguishing the unbelievers in His government of the world with any particular marks of His displeasure.

"I hope you realize that this just went too far and those involved will one day be held accountable."

Uh. By who?

Now now, no need to get all boycotty. All the Mormon Church needs to do is just wait for everyone involved to die - and then you can baptise them into your Church, and BINGO! everything is forgiven.

       I love when people get bent out of shape about their religions.  It's always excited me in someway to make people defend thier point of view.  Usually they just say something along the lines of, "God still loves you" or "You will have to answer to God for your actions." 

       It's amazing to me that they will declare a talking snake ruined Gods creation, and a tower that was in the process of being built was destroyed to create all the languages of the world. My favorite would have to be that a giant flood covered the entire planet and one family survived, of course they put all the animals into a boat only to sacrifice some of those very same animals after the flood.  It is only by faith that people believe the biblical stories, but it's by Reason that the athiest says those stories can't possibly be correct. How are biblical ideas in anyway logical? When challenged on the subject most religious people will simply put thier fingers in their ears. They have placed themselves on some kind of moral high ground where one can't challange their faith. It is time that the religious, take thier ideas and place them into the realm of reason.  We have reached a point in human history that we must rethink our belief systems.

       When listening to people defending thier faith they sound like scared little children clinging to thier safty blanket.  Humans are a very fearful species.  Fear has probably helped us to survive for thousands of years,(a lot more than 8000) but fear today is used to control people. Fox News is great at getting ratings because they cater to a fearful audience.  All thier stories scare people into watching.  Chritianity does the same thing.  They tell you about how great god is, how much he loves you, but then they scare the s**t out of you by telling you, youre going to hell if you dont listen to them. All religious beliefs are based on fear.  Fear is a powerful emotion, when we as humans discover that we are being controlled by it, it allows us to be free and not condemn others for what they enjoy doing for the short time we are on this earth.

Fascinating what I learn on these threads ...

Back to the nail'ing ... 

Scene one: 

Two girlfriends go to a concert together. They talk about everything under the sun and how great the concert was as they head back to the car. They pass through the round in front of the church. One puts her arm through the arm of the other and they keep talking and laughing and having a great conversation. One says something particularly sweet to the other and the other reaches over and kisses the first on the cheek. They smile and laugh and head for the car.

Scene two:

Two brothers go to a concert together and head back to the car together. It has been a while since they have seen each other and they enjoy each other company even though they also fight. They talk about stuff that has been going on and otherwise catch up. They walk through the round in front of the church. The conversation has got playful and teasing and the older brother puts his arm around his younger brother's shoulder jostling him. They banter and laugh and the older leans over and kisses the younger on the temple in brotherly affection. 

Scene three: 

A couple go to a concert together. They talk about all sorts of things and the concert and enjoy each other's company. They hold hands and walk through the round in front of the church. She squeezes his hand thanking him for taking her to the concert. They are heady with the date and how much they enjoy each other. He stops and turns her to him and they kiss passionately for a moment and move on. 

Scene four:

Two men in a committed relationship trying to make their way in the world go to a concert. They walk to the car and talk about the concert, their friends; generally enjoy each other's company. Knowing it is dark and figuring no one can see them, they hold hands and as the conversation shares their care and love for each other, one puts his arm around the shoulder of the other and then he leans over and kisses him on the temple. BAMM - they get arrested for trespassing and disorderly conduct.

Tell me it isn't because they are gay ..

Its called homophobia ... it comes from the inside, not from the behavior itself ... it comes from human beings fears ... not from the divine ... 

I hope there are still people around to read this, since I try to wait at least a week before I respond to things that offend me. I have had time to think about this report and analyze the details, so here goes:

On the show, the Church's report is quoted as saying that the two men were "lewd, profane, and groping." It even displays some of the reports, the third of which was cut off after the first paragrph. Here's the full text (and for those of you who hate to read, the key phrases are in highlighted):

SALT LAKE CITY 17 July 2009 There has been a good deal of publicity surrounding an incident where two men were cited for trespassing because of belligerent and profane behavior on the Church Plaza, which is an extension of the Salt Lake City Temple grounds and Church headquarters. While this property is owned by the Church, we want it to be a place of beauty and serenity in downtown Salt Lake City for everyone.

   As we said earlier on this matter, these men were asked to stop engaging in behavior deemed inappropriate for any couple on the Plaza. There was much more involved than a simple kiss on the cheek. They engaged in passionate kissing, groping, profane and lewd language, and had obviously been using alcohol. They were politely told that the Plaza was not the place for such behavior and asked to stop. When they became belligerent, the two individuals were asked to leave Church property. Church security detained them and Salt Lake City police were called.

    There is nothing satisfying in learning that there have been problems for anyone on Church property. We hope the Plaza will continue to be an asset to the community and enjoyed by the many that cross it each day.

Now, regarding the straight couple that made out in broad daylight, they could at most be called mildly inappropriate. Let's break down the full description, according to the report above, and see if they match:

•  Passionate kissing: You call that passionate? Come on, there was hardly any tongue involved, if at all.
• Groping: None that I could see, unless you count some gentle handling of the back, neck, and waist.
• Profane and lewd language: Nope, they were too busy kissing for that.
• Using alcohol: No breathalyzers available to know for sure, but they were walking pretty steadily.

Perhaps there's more that Stephen didn't show, but all I have to work with is those clips. As far as that footage is concerned, a plaza official might at most shake his head and keep an eye on them. From what I encounter at the public schools where I've taught, an average pair of 15 year-olds would have quite a bit to teach these two kids. Come to think of it, even the "missionaries" on Matt and Derek's couch did a better job. Heck, if I were a passerby, I could easily have mistaken them for a young LDS couple giving in slightly to their "mor-mones" (which are no less raging  than regular hormones, but generally kept under tight control - a tricky situation for Mormon kids with a predilection for bondage).

Speaking of having limited footage to work with, the video surveillance shows nothing of Derek and Matt's behavior before the confrontation, so it's impossible to know for sure what they actually did to elicit a response. Also, since there's not sound, we can't hear the conversation. What I did see was several men in suits, some of them visibly uncomfortable, talking to the two men in question. Their apparent gestures were relatively calm, while their targets seemed somewhat more agitated. The security guards reach for them, and both resist, Matt more aggressively than Derek. Matt is eventually subdued by several men, who continue to hold him, while Derek ends up on a bench to endure further scolding. The video cuts off soon afterward, but it looks like they were preparing to escort them off the premises and into police custody (Wow, it's like Rodney King all over again, only with much more focus on the man-on-man action!). But don't just take my word - Look it up on Youtube and form your own opinion.

Here's another notable fact. According to a UCLA study, from 1990 to 2006, Utah’s per-capita households headed by same-sex couples sprang from 38th in the nation to 14th. So it seems that gay couples are not a rare minority to be easily ostracized due to their small numbers, but are in fact an increasingly prevalent demographic. Sadly, I must admit this probably means a lot of less-tolerant people are on the lookout for "gay behavior" and will attempt to persecute it to the fullest extent of the law. For those actions, I apologize on behalf of my fellow Mormons (Then again, why should I do it? They're the hateful ones!).

As for the church itself, just yesterday it "declared its support of nondiscrimination regulations that would extend protection in matters of housing and employment in Salt Lake City to those with same-sex attraction." I admit the overtness of this statement is probably in response to recent negative publicity, but our doctrine clearly supports this stance. The article goes on to clarify that "the Church also remains 'unequivocally committed to defending the bedrock foundation of marriage between a man and a woman.'" Without getting too sidetracked, let me say that I did a lot of work in favor of California's Proposition 8, but most of us doing so were still conflicted about the issue. Many of us believe that it does not go far enough, and the government should not perform marriages at all. Let them grant civil unions to everyone, and leave "marriage" to be solemnized by religious institutions for whomever they see fit. That's all I will say on the matter.

The bottom line of my argument is that I don't defend any unjust actions by the people in my Church, but this segment went too far. Stephen's principle of truthiness went beyond the overt message and infiltrated what was supposed to be genuine truth on a deeper level.

To those of you who used the segment as an excuse to bolster your own negative views of the LDS Church and it's people, I hope you will look deeper into all the good that we do in the world, and how fairly our sincere believers treat those who are not in line with our principles. In fact, I urge you to keep watch for those of us who are unfair. There are too many of them around, thinking they're better than everyone else, and they deserve a good slap upside the head.

To my fellow Mormons who were offended to the point of anger, I ask that you please try to keep things in perspective. You accomplish very little by posting threats of boycotts and making arguments with way too much emotion and not enough reason. I, for one, remain a loyal citizen of the Colbert Nation.

P.S. - I hope my feeble attempts at humor did not distract from my overall argument; I think I've been watching a few too many segments of "The Word."

Well for the Prop 8 business, for which the Mormons weren't nearly as involved as the Saddleback Church...

all I can say is that it kills me that $20 million dollars was out there floating around - and instead of spending that money on great causes, it was spent on fostering hate.

The true threat to the American family is the pressures from within - from overwork, from poverty, from lack of social networks and support - NOT from gay marriage. Both the Mormon and Saddleback Churches could have done so much good, and exemplified the true spirit of Christianity, had they used that money to aleviate those issues. If 20 million dollars had been sent to some neighborhood in Detroit, where all their mortgages were paid off - bam, you'd have an instant, permanent community of families. The fathers could drop that second job and be with his family more, the mothers could stay home if they wanted to raise the children and build their communities up from within. THAT is how to protect and nuture the American family. Broken homes aren't going to be any less broken if there is a gay couple living next door.

But no, it was wasted on radio ads no one listened to, flyers no one read, and for what. So that Bob and Tony couldn't get married. 

Saddleback's $20 million dollars - *poof* - gone, just like that. It kills me to think of that all just wasted. 

According to the LDS website's "newsroom" - the Mormon Church apparently raised $40 million for Prop 8 - even if they apparently only spent $189,000 on the measure. Still, why even THINK of spending $40 million dollars on something like gay marriage, when they could have contributed that money towards building a hospital wing in Gary, Indiana, or help troops rehabilitate after catastrophic injuries by paying for the best damn prosthetics money can buy.

Imagine what people would say about Saddleback and the Mormon Churches then, if they helped communties stick together, or an ex-marine become independent again? But they didn't, and now the attitude is out there, reinforced by this little kerfuffle, that these churches foster hatred of gay people. 

If God provides you with the bounty your Church members obviously are able to tithe - surely there should be some thought placed as to what is the *better*, more Christian choice, to spend it on?

I guess the same thing could be said about the opposing side as well. They could have spent all their money and efforts on the same thing. But they believe in their cause just as much as those who are LDS. I hope people will come to realize that just because we would like to protect the sanctity of marriage between a man and a woman does in no way mean we are fostering hate. Does that mean that because people dont belive in one religion or another that means they hate everyone who belongs to that religion? It doesnt. Our doctrine teaches us to love and to associate ourselves with good things. There are so many good people, gay, straight, black, white, whatever. There is good everywhere. I dont understand why people think that just because we wont fall to the wayside and just accept everything that comes along that means we hate everyone. Its not true.

As to helping those in this world out, I only wish you could see the Humanitarian efforts our church has given. I worked in Salt Lake for the LDS church in the Welfare and Humanitarian Department. The church has given millions of vaccines to children in Africa, donated thousands of wheelchairs to those in need, sent missionaries to other countries to teach them how to resuscitate and care for a newborn child, sent millions of dollars of relief materials and supplies to all over the world to those affected by hurricanes, tsunamies, floods, earthquakes and every major disaster. Our church is in fact always the first there. There is so much good our church does that I wish people could see. Instead of bashing our beliefs I ask you to learn about them first. Learn of the efforts we are doing around the world everyday. Those of the LDS faith pray daily for those who are victimized or affected by tragedy. Even if you disagree with our beliefs it may help you to come to respect us as a people.

Here is a link of where you can learn more about the Humanitarian efforts of the LDS church.

http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/search?&query=Humanitarian%20Aid&bucket=AllNewsroomContent&maxResults=10